Its very strange to me how normalized a thing it has become to believe that if you havent done 40 hours, then youre doing something wrong. We all might have unproductive days more often than before since we started working from home. So now that I work as a salaried marketing manager for Tims Teapots, if I have a slow morning because I sent out everything I could and Im waiting for people to get back to me before I can move onto the next step, I should charge that waiting time to PTO because I wasnt working I was just waiting.. What's yours? I think this could be really helpful. What is the culture about leave taking at other remote/flexible hours workplaces?

I had ADHD and I have a hard time sitting and focusing for long stretches of time but when I do I can pound out more in 2-4 hours than most people can in 8. Project X is due Friday. Suits TV series is my go-to show. Im kind of baffled why OP is focusing on the retroactive PTO requests instead of this part. I feel like im one of these employees. Requiring exempt employees to work >= 40 hours every week also seems to contradict the spirit of the law, IMHO. I need to enter my PTO so you can see it in the time management software.. If the policy says tasks matter, not hours, the task wasnt due until Friday and it was completed on time on Friday, those hours on Wednesday are entirely meaningless. I do feel like it would be very confusing to tell people your output is what matters and then complain if they sometime have less than 8 hours on their report. But I should definitely ask if Im not seeming to follow my own guidelines or doing other things that are making them feel like a few unproductive hours is a serious problem. But Im still there, ready for any work that shows up. It was so expensive that the fine wasnt making a significant difference to the overall costs, and well, I think the extra cost was more leverage in the inevitable bickering with the staff when the parents were showing up late. We track output in half-days for billing, but there are buffers baked-in to our project deadlines for exactly this kind of thing I shouldnt feel guilty about taking advantage of a thing expressly deigned for this purpose. It allows you to view your monthly calendar and get an overview of the tasks you have completed on each day of the month.

IMO its not dishonest to account for your time in a way that absorbs breaks/unproductive time into those things because the unproductive time is generally part of those tasks (e.g., when you check your email, its not just the time that the email is literally in front of your face that needs to be accounted for, its also the time it takes to pull up the program, shift gears, consider if something needs a response, grab a cup of coffee, go to the bathroom, whatever). Amen. Everyone has a different speed! Getting yourself into work-mode on days when you just dont feel like doing anything is not easy. (Assuming the denominator is decreased by PTO. Here I am sitting for three hours straight staring at my calendar, sipping the 3rd cup of coffee, and finally decided to pen this article down. This is the basic thing I feel like people are getting enough work done by and large. Doesnt matter if the individual employee feels bad that they didnt accomplish anything Wednesday afternoon. And are these hourly employees? I was going to say, if there are a lot of former freelancers in this group, that might explain a habit of feeling the need to account for every hour of their workday. Is their hour-by-hour model something that is good for the company? It sounds like they justdont show up.

My third hurdle would be what you are talking about with shifting work around. Unproductivity is unavoidable. If theyve been working 60-hour weeks, they certainly deserve some time off!

Though it might sound odd, push the ego apart, and find inspiration to visualize your future goals. I dont love that, and I dont love retroactively taking leave, but Im not sure I can articulate why its bad or maybe Im off-base and I should just allow everyone to use leave however they want! So, I do all my billable time. Some felt for some reason that she needed to be working full-tilt for 8 hours, but I figured I was getting the equivalent of 10+ hours of production out of her every day, and just let it go.

Because a 96% billable expectation applied to junior people. (All of this assuming they are attending meetings they need to attend and are meeting deadlines.). But isnt that the usual way of tracking time off?

I have a general feeling that this focus on hours spent promotes time-focused performance management and not goal/output-focused management. The phrase that keeps coming to mind is engaged to wait If I cant go to the ice rink and open skate (or substitute your favorite relaxing hobby) because I had to be at the keyboard in case work did cross my plate, then its not PTO. It reminds me of a young woman I used to work with. This whole scenario is weird to me. Therefore, there is no reason to feel guilty for indulging in an afternoon snooze.

Ive got other tools for managing anyone who is chronically ineffective. My night shift crew knows that they can watch Netflix for four hours if they complete their tasks by the end of their shift. Breaks might be the most unproductive way to handle an unproductive day.

That one wave is all you need to get things started. Not for when you are simply unproductive. If youre having a cold, you rest in bed to get better on sick leave. However, everyone is different with no one-size-fits-all approach to this. Sometimes there were dead zones when there was no work to be done at all, but I was still getting paid. I also was confused.

Remember that it is completely okay to have unproductive days. What I dont understand is the employee getting to the end of the week, and then deciding that, actually, Monday should be a PTO day. Dealing with stressors outside of work? I think that there is this perception that everyone must be productive 100% of the time, cranking out X amount of work and if youre not 100% then you are failing. I really like the idea of the flexible hours workplace where your success is measured in outcomes and not just hours at the desk. Or, when you have someone submit a retroactive request for an hour or two say hey, I noticed you put in a time off request for an hour the other day and just wanted to let you know that I denied it in the system. working from home, and not really having a separate place to work. My manager is pretty great but I am still just not up for asking, So how shold I code my time when Im slacking off? I dont have any coworker/peers that I am confortable asking how they handle either. That sort of thing is exactly what retroactive PTO aka sick time should be used for. Im in a similar situation and it might be my least favorite thing about my current job. These actions and triggers have a name, and they are called productivity anchors.

Only scenario where this would make sense to me is if they are hourly or non-exempt, but that would open up a whole different can of worms in terms of concern over this approach. If you would assign work differently if you knew someone wasnt going to be working their expected hours, thats absolutely your business and its very reasonable to point that out and ask that you be informed ahead of time (or at least in real time). Conscientious employees with a conscientious manager! Im good at my job but Im worried Im lazy, my small open plan office is trying to enforce a semi-quiet work environment and I hate it, enneagrams in hiring, sheer blouses at work, and more, updates: my coworker cried and called me militant, and more, dealing with domestic abuse in the workplace. It can be a new skill or personal commitment. This letter helped me realize that I have been on-call as the only person in my company who can do a very focused, time-consuming, and meticulous task for the last 3 months. Is today the day your to-do list scares you, and all you want to do is NOTHING?

All remaining time gets assigned to whatever my main focus was that week.

Typically, unless we know we are taking time off ahead of time, at the end of the pay period we just record the hours worked and use leave for the hours not worked. When I briefly worked from home, last year, I had to track my time. I may have a bit of a warped view because of my work history, but I would feel very weird about using PTO in this way. I worry about staff who want to pay for a lack of productivity retroactively, because in some cases they have been at the computer the appropriate hours, feeling guilty perhaps for not working, rather than recuperating. Ive read comments and it seems like, the people are getting work done, and having subsequent down time or are taking breaks between work that seem (to them, extensive).

So thank you! That could mean talking with co workers for too long, or getting sucked into reading AAM for a whole afternoon. If someone spends the day in bed watching West Wing reruns, it makes sense to charge that to PTO. I love flexible systems, BUT they need very clear parameters and thought to work well in my experience.

If you need a day off, prearrange it. There are a bunch of possibilities, but Id take it as a flag to look at whats really behind it and to actively manage anything that requires managing, rather than approaching it as strictly a question of how and whether to log PTO. If your employees are available for work they should be getting compensated. I appreciate not having to take off a whole day for those times but to be flexible to maybe use a few hours or so. Draw that stark line and live by it. Boom. If you are in a mood to work but you are just not eating the frog and procrastinating, fret not, here is a quick list of procrastination hacks you can try right away after reading this article. For example, I work from home full time in a job that is fairly cyclical.

Especially recently, i have been having panic attacks that make me have to stop working for the day. So much of management is about setting norms, and this is a norm that I think is important to set. I have three crucial tasks with flexible deadlines and no mood to work. If I ended up having to leave/quit at 2 on a Tuesday, I rarely did anything other than tell my boss see ya tomorrow.

I could see myself falling into that routine: I think it might take clear messaging and a culture shift more than prohibiting this behavior explicitly, but Id want to be VERY clear that if you are at your computer trying to work, you should not use PTO. I have to say I dont even understand the question. I think the retroactive PTO here is functioning like a fail-safe way to get your full pay without necessarily producing all that much.

Feeling lost and overwhelmed by your seemingly unending pile of work? I was also thinking there may be mixes messages. I hope Im not sending mixed messages, but your right that this is a good thing to check! Often, we stress a lot of doing nothing and end up affecting the work pattern throughout the week. This could be a longer term issue or just for a few months, I cant tell. And having begun in one of those industries, I found it brutal and a way of instilling a butt in seat mentality. My office is fully remote and very flexible, allowing people to work whenever they want as long as they make meetings and assessing performance based on work output, not time. I didnt understand the problem the OP was having and appreciate those below more clear. If the same conversation had happened in a firm, I would be hitting the pavement HARD to look for another job. Or.the kind of day you get sucked into the AAM archives and updates. I understand if youre calling in sick, then when youre doing timecards at the end of the week, you have to mark that you took Monday off work (or whatever). When it isnt slow i easily make up the two hours. Being in the office 40 hours a week and actively working 40 hours a week are two very different things, and theres a lot of research to show that most people arent actually capable of being fully productive for 8 hours a day. Unproductive days can be tough, especially when you are up to your ears in work. But I know in LWs position, this is what I would be worrying was going on. If someone is doing an excellent job and they have an occasional day like that, thats because theyre a normal human and I dont love seeing them lose PTO over it. Full days were creating issues. where everyone is online and available? Sleep in until noon? I can usually manage on less than half the time it would take to watch the videos.

Technically I can carry forward time when I go over 40 hours but its challenging to do in practice. I dont disagree that sick leave should be used in a recuperative way, not sitting in front of the computer feeling guilty about not working. I wo der if the team has this belief that if they arent doing x amount that they are not productive. So I get the drawbacks of being non-exempt without the overtime pay. See, thats why I would be uneasy about it: because if this were allowed, thats what I would do: procrastinate, thinking, eh, if I dont get around to actually working Ill put in PTO.

One of my first jobs in a non-law professional services firm was like this; there wasnt really anywhere for downtime to go without major scrutiny, and you couldnt easily factor it into time spent on a project because $$$. For example, if I left early on Tuesday, and I knew Project X was due Friday, Id tell my boss hey I need to head out early.

I could generally account for all my down time that way. I think you could possibly say retroactive PTO isnt something youre willing to do, though you are willing to approve last-minute time off requests, and that might take the pressure off (and also motivate people past the afternoon doldrums if they know they cant take retroactive time off to assuage their guilt).

You can also read a book or watch a movie that inspires. I think impromptu time off can work with a flexible schedule so long as all deadlines are met and you arent blowing off meetings last minute or doing anything else that will disrupt someone elses schedule. Yea Im like Im not sure about using up a day to go to the doctor because one day I spent going to meetings and typing slowly. But if not, it should be fine. Other days I was slower and finished all the product by the end of my shift. Social media is so addictive, I know it's fun, entertaining, and there are so many different platforms. This sounds awful! I feel like the only real issue in this story is with the employees who had an unproductive day (but sat behind their laptop ready for action) and feel that they have to pay for that in PTO. So, instead of dwelling on it, we can cut some slack and make peace with it. I definitely have days where between meetings and waiting for email replies and so forth I never really get traction on anything productive.

Back out anything where I know I wasnt even engaged to wait (like a midday walk) and then put the difference between that number and 8 in as my admin time for the day so I always have at least 8 hours. That wouldnt end anywhere good for me, but maybe LWs reports are fine since they are meeting goals. Um, sorry, I wasnt feeling well yesterday and didnt get it done early. See how much you have progressed in your life or find the areas to improve. 4. i have a standing 2 hour appointment on fridays to work out with a personal trainer, and if i sign back on at 4pm and nothing is happening and i know its gonna be one of those dead fridays, ill put it down as pto and stop for the day. Certainly it is ideal to request PTO in advance, but must be announced before start of day is definitely not a straightforward ask. This was really hard to read and glean info from. If the emphasis is on output versus hours worked why do they even need to claim it as PTO so long as they are meeting their goals and expectations? If the targets are putting undue pressure on people, take a look at that (or maybe thats just the nature of the job.). The problems are pretty clearly articulated? Sometimes things simply arent working and I find it better to step away than try to push through.

I used to work under a billable hour model where there was no such thing as admin/overhead time (unless you were physically typing up someones performance review or doing a mandatory HR training). Claiming time off to mask low productivity definitely can be a problem though or missing deadlines. Is it a case of too much flexibility? I would hate to work in a place were there was even an informal expectation that I retroactively count that day as PTO. Switching from that mindset to one where Im paid to fill a role and I continue to have that role and get paid the same amount as long as I generally fill it in an adequate manner wouldnt be easy for me, I think. Im kind of confused about what retroactive PTO even means in general. That conversation actually is what led to some employees telling me they preferred the track each hour, pay back if missed model. Well, if you haven't found your anchor, ponder over your working patterns to understand which action serves as your anchor.

Where is the TPS report! I think the difference is that you actually take these half days off, whereas LW seems to have employees who work the half day but are not satisfied with the work output. But if you dont want to spend your precious time figuring out whats most effective, there is a classic and scientifically proven productivity technique that has taken the world of productivity by storm in recent years. I worked somewhere that used to make engaged to wait employees punch out until they had something to do, then punch back in. Theyre used to tracking (and justifying) what they did every six minutes of their working lives (which, in biglaw, might as well just read lives), the government jobs still require entering time sheets, but I didnt get anything done, so I guess I need to take PTO is very much not a thing. Substituting PTO hours when youre just feeling a bit listless and unfocused seems wrong.

Your comment resonates so well with me. YMMV. Privacy Policy and Affiliate Disclosures, our employer wants to cut our pay -- retroactively, unlimited vacation policies may not be as great as they sound, my manager believes that working from home is a day off work, coworker loves to abuse robocallers, boss uses Facebook photos without permission, and more, Mortification Week: the declined offer, the obscene amigurumi, and more. Reading AAM is *at least* as productive as working modules in my companys online training system. I dont think thats necessarily true. If youre having a bad mental health day, you practice self-care.

Hit their name up on the internet and observe their next strategy. Sorry it was confusing!

It all evens out. Perhaps for my direct reports I can check in more on specific goals for the week, and talk about how unproductive time relates to whether those goals are getting met (and doesnt need to bring pto into it at all). Once these 15 minutes are up, jot down exactly what you had completed during this time. I once worked at a [horrible, toxic] global software company who punished me for my down time. We are only human, so dont push yourself too hard, and be sure to set aside days for rest! When in fact taking 10 minutes to unload the washing machine, or popping out to the post box, or whatever, is exactly the WFH equivalent of those making the tea/having a chat with someone in the kitchen in-office moments. Its the kind of timekeeping practice that absolutely shapes culture, and it took a lot of deprogramming for me to adjust to an environment that wasnt like this. I have had very, very slow days at some jobs. Our daycare did that too, but they also reserved the right to fire clients who became chronically tardy to pick up their kids. Doing 8 hours of focused technical work is another story. Ha! It might have the dual benefit of helping you plan the tasks and helping you identify whether any employees are really digging themselves into a hole. It just requires a completely different mindset about work getting done. Else, propose the next day. My boss rejected her timesheet because he had to approve any leave we submitted and she kept submitting these overly detailed sheets with half an hour here and 2 hours there, when per policy we werent required to take leave if we worked at least a half day (4 hours). Im exempt too. What seems very legitimate is your first bullet point. Normally that was a 45-minute drive. Napping when you haven't even ticked one task off your list might feel counterproductive. I agree, Eliza. They definitely should be planning ahead though so OP can plan ahead for coverage. Esp. Some weeks, I dont plan on taking PTO but later I realize that the quick doctors appointment in the afternoon led to my knocking off early, so I take half a day, etc., etc. This is what I love about Alison and AskAManager. Its a bit of a mixed message to say I dont care about your time and also how did you not tell me until Friday that you were off Tuesday? When we first went remote someone said that they knew they would only be 80% productive in a day, because they would get distracted by the dog, or needing to put morning dishes in the dishwasher, stuff like that. It just requires a different mindset about accountability. They may not have been effective, but they were working and my organization expects them to not use vacation if they are working. Perhaps check every Monday and have staff tell you which days they want as PTO based on the weeks workload. I cannot tell you how much I needed to read this . Pamper the passion in you. My concern would be that if people get in the habit of Ill see what happens today and then decide whether I was working or not it could make it harder to just do the normal thing of Im sick and Im taking the day off. When it comes to less productive days I think it would contribute to burn out not really having a day off to enjoy but sort of hovering around the computer wondering if maybe you should be doing more and how do I feel about it etc. Its weird to me that a company that seems quite relaxed and liberal about time worked vs tasks accomplished also has employees who feel so guilty about those unproductive days that they use sick time. If they are familiar with their workload they should be able to do that. Wait for the rush embraces you. At one point I was the only person in the office for almost two weeks while everyone was away, but the phones and mail still had to be monitored. My current gig is super petty about PTO to the minute; we are all salaried professionals with high level skill sets. Or have everyone set when they are going to be online that week at the beginning of the week (end of the prior week), so they at least set an expectation for when they expect to be available to allow assignment? Whether someone decides to cut out early on a Wednesday or take leave, do you want or need to know? I think it comes down to a few of things: When a direct report doesnt let me know they havent worked as much as they meant to until the end of the week, the issue isnt the hours (which could be paid back with leave under the employees desired system) because I dont generally care about hours if youre meeting all your goals. One place where I worked in a supervisory capacity it was expected that I would come up with make work for people so they were actually doing something. Its just the nature of the job sometimes. I dont want you losing PTO over it so dont charge it that way.. Yeah, most of the time its something like what Coenobita said. It's important to know which part of the day your productivity is at its optimum. I dont charge my PTO bank if Im sitting around at my computer reading advice columns or casually doing administrative tasks while Im watching TV. I worked with a senior executive, years ago, who contended that there were times when the most productive use of a manager/professionals time was to sit and stare out the window while his subconscious mind worked out the conflicts that the conscious mind was bogged down in.

However, I have learned that as long as I fill in that 40 hours a week, nobody hassles me about it. But, we all have a list of essential yet menial daily tasks. I worked for a municipality where no time sheet meant big issues- not only with TPTB but also with auditors.

This is interesting.

But when you you give people X hours off, theyre going to think in terms of X hours off.). We also pay that overage directly to the teacher who has to stay late with the child. It seems they then dont benefit from the leave they end up taking to cover this, or risk spending too much of their sick leave this way and not having enough later.

(This is not a serious nitpick of your language. I wonder if this is leading to an inequity in how PTO is used?

Wed then be able to reevaluate and shed help or reassign or whatever. How do I apply? Hopefully that will help them to also start to see their work days more holistically. Maybe everyone needs to have a little defined structure? I cant tell if people feel guilty for not being productive or if people just dont get paid if they are not producing something/anything.

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